Homyguy Ze (2:00:37 PM): yo
Rekthar42 (2:00:47 PM): yarg
Homyguy Ze (2:00:54 PM): want to help me troubleshoot this rig as I make it? just need some suggestions on screenshots as I go along
Rekthar42 (2:01:36 PM): NO! FU! I DONT WANNA!
Rekthar42 (2:01:41 PM): sure
Homyguy Ze (2:02:14 PM): hahahah
Homyguy Ze (2:02:15 PM): thanks
Homyguy Ze (2:02:30 PM): http://www.3dmmfiles.com/uploads/homyguyz/permalinks/rig1.jpg
Homyguy Ze (2:02:42 PM): I'm following the Game Animator's Guide PDF
Homyguy Ze (2:03:05 PM): but because of the monster's position and body thickness, I'm a little lost on just where joints would be the most useful going up the spine, to start
Homyguy Ze (2:03:21 PM): should it be right up the back, or a little bit closer to the center?
Rekthar42 (2:04:56 PM): it should probably be more of a natural shape going more up the center, the spine of the rig doesnt have to be where the actual spine would be, think of it more like the trunk of the tree, as long as its in a central position for all the limbs to sprout from, and wont interfere with weighting limbs too much, it should be fine
Homyguy Ze (2:05:46 PM): ok, so I don't need that connecting joint in the pelvis necessarily
Homyguy Ze (2:05:59 PM): or rather, it won't sprout out so far once I centralize the spine better
Rekthar42 (2:06:41 PM): yes
Homyguy Ze (2:07:21 PM): and it should be more of a straight line rather than a curve?
Homyguy Ze (2:07:28 PM): even considering the monster's current body position?
Rekthar42 (2:10:30 PM): it should be more like a human spine with a counter curve in the back because in anatomy its vital for the way our hips and legs move, so it should be vaguely S shaped without going to extremes
Homyguy Ze (2:13:07 PM): http://www.3dmmfiles.com/uploads/homyguyz/permalinks/rig2.jpg
Homyguy Ze (2:13:11 PM): better, or am I still not getting it?
Rekthar42 (2:21:24 PM): i think your still following the spine a little bit too much, and i dont think it needs that drastic of a furve towards the hips, more of a shallow approach. your also gonna want to adjust the joints in the head, the end joint should be at the very top of the head, and the pivot joint should be right where the head and neck meet, likely around middle of the throat, it doesnt matter so much if its anatomically correct, just so long as it can move properly
Homyguy Ze (2:21:51 PM): ahhh, ok, thanks
Homyguy Ze (2:21:52 PM): adjusting
Homyguy Ze (2:23:05 PM): I don't need the pelvic joint to curl back in the S shape quite so extremely, then, cause the connecting leg joints will do that, if I'm reading this diagram right
Rekthar42 (2:25:28 PM): hm, not sure
Homyguy Ze (2:26:29 PM): nm, I got the angle wrong
Homyguy Ze (2:26:35 PM): thought the image was in side view
Homyguy Ze (2:26:39 PM): so it looked like that
Homyguy Ze (2:30:01 PM): http://www.3dmmfiles.com/uploads/homyguyz/permalinks/rig3.jpg
Homyguy Ze (2:30:12 PM): kind of extreme around the head, but it seems to make sense when I smoothe bind
Rekthar42 (2:33:27 PM): yeah, looking better, maybe bring the neck joint up a little to a position more in the center of the throat, and the shoulder joint doesnt need to be that high up, from what i see the shoulders start lower in the body so it should sit dead center between them
Homyguy Ze (2:33:58 PM): ahhh, ok, that makes sense
Homyguy Ze (2:35:13 PM): should the shoulder joint be at the base of the shoulders or more in the center?
Homyguy Ze (2:35:47 PM): I mean, further toward the back or somewhere a little closer to the arms
Rekthar42 (2:37:01 PM): well if your going to draw the arm skeletons for the rig, and the shoulders go where the shoulders should go, they should form more or less a staight line with the shoulder spinal joint in the middle, theres no need for angles
Homyguy Ze (2:37:40 PM): gotcha
Homyguy Ze (4:09:02 PM): http://www.3dmmfiles.com/uploads/homyguyz/permalinks/rig4a.jpg
Homyguy Ze (4:09:05 PM): http://www.3dmmfiles.com/uploads/homyguyz/permalinks/rig4b.jpg
Homyguy Ze (4:09:10 PM): does this make sense?
Homyguy Ze (4:09:25 PM): the clavicle joints don't seem to work the same way here as they would on a human in the upright position
Homyguy Ze (4:09:32 PM): so I tried to figure out about where they'd be
Rekthar42 (4:20:20 PM): looks good, you might have to do a little extra painting in that area so that the whole chest/shoulder area doesnt move when the shoulder rotates. you migh be able to fix some of this by putting a second fixed joint right before the shoulder
Homyguy Ze (4:21:14 PM): hmm, alright
Homyguy Ze (4:21:21 PM): I was thinking about that, but wasn't sure
Homyguy Ze (4:21:24 PM): will try, thanks
Homyguy Ze (4:23:29 PM): // Warning: Skipping joint3: It has non-zero rotations. //
Homyguy Ze (4:23:34 PM): got this after orienting a join
Homyguy Ze (4:23:40 PM): will it be trouble later?
Rekthar42 (4:37:52 PM): hm, what do you mean orienting it?
Homyguy Ze (4:38:43 PM): the Orient Joint tool
Homyguy Ze (4:38:46 PM): under skeleton
Homyguy Ze (4:39:05 PM): it modified the transformation axis of a joint
Homyguy Ze (4:39:17 PM): so it'd point toward the child
Homyguy Ze (4:39:24 PM): but I got that error popup when I did it
Rekthar42 (4:39:36 PM): hm, never gotten that error before
Homyguy Ze (4:39:53 PM): I'll save an extra copy just in case
Rekthar42 (4:40:02 PM): good idea
Homyguy Ze (4:54:11 PM): probably should've started with a human character
Rekthar42 (4:54:47 PM): eh, you know what mckee has to say about human models
Homyguy Ze (4:55:00 PM): hahah, I don't actually
Homyguy Ze (4:55:03 PM): doesn't care for them?
Rekthar42 (4:56:21 PM): well the problem with them is we are trained from birth to recognise human anatomy and natural human movements, so everyone is inherently really good at picking them apart when they deviate slightly from reality
Homyguy Ze (4:56:36 PM): ahhh, yeah
Homyguy Ze (4:56:38 PM): the uncanny valley
Rekthar42 (4:56:54 PM): but with an inhuman character you can change him up, give him all kinds of crazy animations and we accept it more easily
Homyguy Ze (4:57:38 PM): humans are the best to start off with though
Homyguy Ze (4:57:47 PM): since they're a base model for the way we think about animation
Homyguy Ze (4:57:51 PM): and there are a million tutorials for them
Rekthar42 (4:57:54 PM): well, more humanoid at least
Homyguy Ze (4:58:34 PM): true enough
Rekthar42 (5:01:26 PM): personally im wishing i had started with a much less detailed environment to set my scene in
Homyguy Ze (5:02:25 PM): haha, it'll be worth it
Rekthar42 (5:03:34 PM): yeah, im allready pretty psyched by it, once i get the lighting moody enough, and hang enoughy spikey chains from it, it should have just the right creepiness
Homyguy Ze (5:04:07 PM): sounds awesome
Homyguy Ze (5:04:12 PM): dude, pop an in-progress render
Homyguy Ze (5:04:17 PM): I haven't seen it since December
Rekthar42 (5:05:09 PM): yarg, its not where i want it yet, maybe in a little while
Homyguy Ze (5:05:52 PM): dude, this is a fellow multimedia geek you're talking to
Homyguy Ze (5:06:01 PM): I know that in-progress stuff isn't representative of the grand vision
Homyguy Ze (5:06:05 PM): but it's up to you
Homyguy Ze (5:06:24 PM): hey, quick question about preferred angle
Homyguy Ze (5:06:40 PM): oh, wait
Homyguy Ze (5:06:42 PM): nevermind, I got it
Rekthar42 (5:06:59 PM): allright, glad i could help
Homyguy Ze (5:07:11 PM): hahaha
Rekthar42 (5:08:36 PM): bah, im still really struggeling with overall lighting, ive turned the ambient on the sky dome way up and most of the cathedral is still in shadows, but everything in the greenhouse is looking allright, thought i havent gotten to hanging physical lightbulbs yet
Homyguy Ze (5:09:04 PM): feedback is your friiiiiiiend
Rekthar42 (5:09:12 PM): feedback?
Homyguy Ze (5:09:24 PM): yeah, get some suggestions and general "dude that looks awesome"
Homyguy Ze (5:09:52 PM): I'm just messing, take renders whenever you're comfortable with the scene
Homyguy Ze (5:10:26 PM): when you say the ambient on the skydome
Homyguy Ze (5:10:52 PM): you mean the ambient color of the material?
Homyguy Ze (5:11:02 PM): as it's not affected by light sources?
Rekthar42 (5:11:40 PM): yeah, the ambient is tied to a B&W of the sky texture, does the ambient attribute not actually cast light?
Homyguy Ze (5:12:02 PM): it casts color
Homyguy Ze (5:12:17 PM): or rather, it displays color that isn't based on light sources hitting it
Homyguy Ze (5:12:26 PM): so even in pitch black you'd see an ambient color
Homyguy Ze (5:12:36 PM): but it doesn't reflect or impact other surfaces below it
Homyguy Ze (5:12:56 PM): you'll need an ambient or directional light for that
Homyguy Ze (5:13:23 PM): are you trying to send light through overcast clouds or something?
Rekthar42 (5:15:51 PM): well, sort of, that would be an interesting idea, but mostly im just trying to get a conistent overcast look, and i thought i could get that by turning up the ambient value on the dome, but i guess not. so i need an ambient light node?
Homyguy Ze (5:16:42 PM): ambient light only for hitting the objects below with light in a more uniform way
Homyguy Ze (5:17:11 PM): for overcast, ambient will probably help, just don't go too extreme with it
Homyguy Ze (5:17:45 PM): you'll have to experiment with different crater, cloud, or volumetric bumps to achieve a nice overcast
Homyguy Ze (5:17:54 PM): maybe even multiple domes
Homyguy Ze (5:17:57 PM): which I've done before in the past
Rekthar42 (5:18:06 PM): thats kind of the prolem im having, ambient lights tend to just wash everything out and allways seem too damn bright, maybe if i cast it through the skydome with a transparency
Homyguy Ze (5:18:49 PM): that might be worth a try. I'm not sure how to make bump maps cast shadows, maybe by plugging the shadow value of the light into a value on the bump
Homyguy Ze (5:19:00 PM): but you can turn ambient shade up and down
Homyguy Ze (5:19:03 PM): on ambient lights
Homyguy Ze (5:19:13 PM): unfortunately, it means you have to use raytrace shadows
Homyguy Ze (5:19:28 PM): ambients don't have depth map shadows, which means you'll be upping your render time considerably
Homyguy Ze (5:19:39 PM): but if you're already using raytracing for reflections and whatnot, no problem
Rekthar42 (5:21:15 PM): yeah, havent been doing any serious renders, but i tend to use raytracing anyway
Homyguy Ze (5:22:20 PM): you could always disable shadows for the ambient light as well
Rekthar42 (5:24:20 PM): hm, seems like that would be a bit conspicuous, alot of my big objects away from detail lights would have no shadows
Homyguy Ze (5:24:36 PM): ahh, yeah
Homyguy Ze (5:25:02 PM): do you know if there's a tutorial for making hand and feet controllers?
Homyguy Ze (5:25:23 PM): or could you walk me through it if not?
Homyguy Ze (5:25:29 PM): it doesn't seem to be in this one
Rekthar42 (5:25:47 PM): ah, hm... shit, i cant remember what book i got it out of.. or maybe it was online
Rekthar42 (5:27:56 PM): well, i really cant remember where the tutorial is i got it from, so let me run it donw real quick, might have to open up one of my older rigs
Homyguy Ze (5:28:50 PM): alright, thanks
Rekthar42 (5:29:50 PM): you might want to find a tutorial on inverse foot kinematics.. though, now that i think about it, your guy might not call for it, since he kind of has hand feet
Homyguy Ze (5:30:17 PM): hmm
Homyguy Ze (5:30:29 PM): I'd like to start with the basics
Homyguy Ze (5:30:35 PM): I'll backtrack if I need to
Rekthar42 (5:32:54 PM): well its kinda hard to describe but bascially IK simulates muscle movement, while normal FK skeletons simulate bone movement, hands and feet are big uses of this, though you can fudge with hands. on his feet.. i dont know.
Homyguy Ze (5:33:32 PM): as long as I can give toes the curl values and whatnot you had on the avante garden characters, I can handle the rest
Rekthar42 (5:33:35 PM): Anyways.. what you want to do to start is to draw any shape with a CV curve tool, because curves dont naturally render
Homyguy Ze (5:33:49 PM): alright, circles seem to work
Rekthar42 (5:34:15 PM): yeah, circles and squares are easy cause you dont even have to draw, them, just have maya make them
Rekthar42 (5:34:54 PM): then your going to name it something like rHandControl, doesnt matter, just as long as you can find it again
Homyguy Ze (5:35:25 PM): got it
Rekthar42 (5:35:33 PM): and go in and position it by your hand and parent it to your wrist joing
Homyguy Ze (5:35:57 PM): should I have the skeleton bound already?
Rekthar42 (5:36:00 PM): you might want to instert a wrist rotation circle around the wrist while your at it. just makes it easier for manipulating
Homyguy Ze (5:36:13 PM): good idea
Rekthar42 (5:36:26 PM): nah, you can do it unbound just as easily
Homyguy Ze (5:37:09 PM): alrighty
Rekthar42 (5:39:01 PM): k, now once your sure of the placement go up to the channel box and select all the scale/rotation/position nodes, pretty much everything but visibility and right click and hit lock and hide selected
Rekthar42 (5:40:03 PM): bah, maya just exploded on me again, one sec
Homyguy Ze (5:40:45 PM): damn
Homyguy Ze (5:42:11 PM): the wrist joint shoudl be a child of the controller right?
Rekthar42 (5:42:23 PM): k, so with the hand control selected right click in the channel box again and hit add new attribute. towards the bottom
Rekthar42 (5:42:57 PM): no, the controller should be a child of the wrist joint, you want the controller to move with the hand, not move it
Homyguy Ze (5:43:07 PM): hhh
Homyguy Ze (5:43:09 PM): ahhh
Homyguy Ze (5:43:49 PM): ok
Rekthar42 (5:46:53 PM): hmm, that wierd, so the wrsit controller shouldnt be actually parented to the wrist itself, instead the wrist should be parent constraned to the controller, but i cant find the node for it in this models hypergraph
Homyguy Ze (5:48:04 PM): parent constrained?
Rekthar42 (5:48:39 PM): oh oh ok, i think i remember, so what you do is you take the circle for the wrist and you point constraint it to the wrist joint, to make sure the dead center of the circle falls at the dead center of the joint, then you delete history, and then parent constraint
Homyguy Ze (5:49:08 PM): wow
Homyguy Ze (5:49:09 PM): ok, one sec
Rekthar42 (5:50:08 PM): yeah, under animation theres a constrain menu, lik with normal parenting you select what you want parented to last
Homyguy Ze (5:50:49 PM): it moves the circle to the center of the joint, so it's in perfect orbit around it
Homyguy Ze (5:51:05 PM): now parent constrain the same way?
Rekthar42 (5:51:44 PM): that right, and then when you parent constrain the wrist to the circle (opposite of before) it should move everything after the wrist joint
Homyguy Ze (5:52:09 PM): it does, but it's also spitting out warnings every time I movie t
Homyguy Ze (5:52:13 PM): move it*
Homyguy Ze (5:52:14 PM): // Warning: Cycle on 'LWrist_parentConstraint1.target[0].targetTranslate' may not evaluate as expected.
Rekthar42 (5:52:50 PM): hmm
Rekthar42 (5:53:38 PM): did you delete the history after the point constraint?
Homyguy Ze (5:53:47 PM): yeah
Homyguy Ze (5:53:53 PM): I'll do it again on the whole skeleton and the controller
Rekthar42 (5:54:16 PM): hmm, if that works maybe go back and dont delete history
Rekthar42 (5:54:23 PM): *doesnt work
Homyguy Ze (5:55:25 PM): doesn't affect it
Homyguy Ze (5:55:28 PM): still yells at me
Homyguy Ze (5:55:35 PM): and breaks when I try to translate the controller
Homyguy Ze (5:56:09 PM): it doesn't know how to undo back to the original position, instead it removes the constraint and then returns it to how it was originally
Rekthar42 (5:56:32 PM): wierd...
Homyguy Ze (5:56:51 PM): are you sure I need both constraints?
Homyguy Ze (5:57:04 PM): and that it's not just a regular parent instead of a parent constraint?
Rekthar42 (5:57:49 PM): yeah, its a parent constraint, you dont want to directly parent skeletons with controllers, it tends to make things wonky
Homyguy Ze (5:58:23 PM): can I point constraint the controller to position it and then remove the constraint?
Homyguy Ze (5:58:35 PM): cause I think it's the two of them fighting each other that may be the problem
Rekthar42 (5:59:10 PM): the point constraint is really only there to make sure it fits perfectly with the joint, technically you dont have to do it, it just causes a little confusion on how far you can move the controller
Rekthar42 (5:59:21 PM): yes
Homyguy Ze (5:59:56 PM): that fixed it
Homyguy Ze (6:00:02 PM): it was the two constraints fighting
Homyguy Ze (6:00:11 PM): ok, so, I think we were at the channel box last
Rekthar42 (6:02:56 PM): yar, so your channel box should be clean except for the visibility attribute, and you do an add attribute
Homyguy Ze (6:03:26 PM): got it
Rekthar42 (6:04:59 PM): k, it has 3 fingers and a thumb, so type in an attribute for each one of these called something like "indexCurl" "middleCurl" data type: float scalar, with a minimum of -10 and maximum of 30
Rekthar42 (6:05:15 PM): after you set each one click add
Rekthar42 (6:07:01 PM): after you have those 4 set up, you need to add a thumbRotX and a thumbRotZ (by the way, for our purposes everything doesnt have to be named in this camelback way that im typing, i just read that if your going to write any mel to control things, everything has to be named like that)
Homyguy Ze (6:07:23 PM): ahhh, haha
Homyguy Ze (6:07:29 PM): got all those
Rekthar42 (6:07:32 PM): also put in a handSpread attribute
Homyguy Ze (6:07:52 PM): ooh, a new one
Homyguy Ze (6:08:05 PM): ok set
Rekthar42 (6:08:49 PM): k, now go to Animate > Set Driven Key > Set
Homyguy Ze (6:09:06 PM): ok
Rekthar42 (6:09:20 PM): heres where it gets fun
Rekthar42 (6:09:37 PM): select your controller and hit the "Load Driver" button
Homyguy Ze (6:09:55 PM): got it
Rekthar42 (6:10:11 PM): in the righthand box select your first attribute, probably your indexcurl
Homyguy Ze (6:10:45 PM): load driven next?
Rekthar42 (6:11:19 PM): k, shift select each joint in the index finger, and hit load driven
Homyguy Ze (6:11:30 PM): doesn't matter what order?
Rekthar42 (6:11:51 PM): not particularly, but id go base up
Homyguy Ze (6:11:59 PM): yeah
Rekthar42 (6:12:45 PM): the hardest part of this is remembering, and ive fucked it up before by forgetting one joint or skipping one
Rekthar42 (6:13:09 PM): so in the channel box the index curl shoud be set to the 0 mark
Homyguy Ze (6:13:12 PM): oh god, I could see myself doing that
Homyguy Ze (6:13:18 PM): yeah
Rekthar42 (6:13:43 PM): in the driven box select the rotate x attribute of each joint and click key at the bottom
Rekthar42 (6:14:25 PM): you can select all the joints and the rotatex attribute once, and hit key once
Rekthar42 (6:15:55 PM): now in the channel box set the value of indexcurl to -10 and manually rotate the fingers into about the most extreme anatomical flex that the fingers can make in the wrong direction
Homyguy Ze (6:16:11 PM): ahhh. starting to see how this works
Rekthar42 (6:16:59 PM): its pretty much like keyframing, except your seting a tween between it and attaching a slider to it
Homyguy Ze (6:17:10 PM): huh. I seem to be on a different axis
Homyguy Ze (6:17:26 PM): and some of these joints aren't set at 0 for Rotate X, though I guess that doesn't matter
Homyguy Ze (6:17:35 PM): I should be doing Rotate Z it seems
Rekthar42 (6:17:44 PM): oh yeah.. your hands are facing forwards, mine are allways off to the sides, it should all be rotate z then
Homyguy Ze (6:18:59 PM): I should bind the skin
Homyguy Ze (6:19:04 PM): so I can see what I'm doing
Homyguy Ze (6:19:24 PM): I haven't mirrored the skeleton yet
Homyguy Ze (6:19:28 PM): is that gonna be a problem?
Homyguy Ze (6:19:46 PM): and how easy will it be to copy this to the other side? will I have to redo it?
Rekthar42 (6:20:17 PM): yep, driven keys are a pretty sinple system but they are soo freaking powerful, you can set up everythign from blinking yawning, walking, even ip movement with it. you remember that HuD that Bethany's Coffee guy came with? id like to do something that complicated one day when i get a complex enough model with blend shapes and such
Homyguy Ze (6:20:37 PM): haha nice
Rekthar42 (6:21:22 PM): unfortunately ive never found a way to copy control rigs succesfully, you can copy the curve itself and all its attributes, but you still have to rename them all for the new hand, and do all the set driven keys
Homyguy Ze (6:21:53 PM): damn
Homyguy Ze (6:21:58 PM): oh well, not to big a deal
Rekthar42 (6:23:19 PM): nah, once you get into the zombie like rythm of "set driver, set 0, change attribute, flex rig, set driven, set key, repeat" its only 2-3 hours of mindlessness till its done :-)
Homyguy Ze (6:23:58 PM): hahhaa
Homyguy Ze (6:24:01 PM): thanks a bunch dude
Homyguy Ze (6:24:06 PM): this will make things much easier
Homyguy Ze (6:24:12 PM): rigging was one of the last big milestones for me
Rekthar42 (6:25:04 PM): no problem man, im bout to get dinner here, but i should be on the rest of the night if you have questions
Homyguy Ze (6:25:27 PM): cool, thanks again
Homyguy Ze (7:03:49 PM): weird
Homyguy Ze (7:04:05 PM): the rotate Z attribute on the index curl turns yellow when I key it
Homyguy Ze (7:04:15 PM): so that when I change the index curl value and key again, it works
Homyguy Ze (7:04:19 PM): but on the others it just stays orange
Homyguy Ze (7:04:21 PM): and doesn't work
Homyguy Ze (7:05:05 PM): nevermind. weird.
Homyguy Ze (8:06:38 PM): having an issue here, whenever you're back
Rekthar42 (8:06:56 PM): whats up?

Homyguy Ze (8:07:17 PM): I'm not finished setting all the keys, but whenever I manipulate an upper arm joint, the wrist joint remains anchored
Homyguy Ze (8:07:31 PM): making the hand stay in place and the upper arm kind of twists around it
Homyguy Ze (8:07:45 PM): was I supposed to parent something somewhere?
Rekthar42 (8:10:34 PM): ok looking at my model, ive got a second fixed joint above wrist joint thats the wrist rotator, i think you need to put one in and parent the wrist node to that, so that it controls the wrist/arm, but still moves with the arm
Homyguy Ze (8:10:53 PM): ok, I'll give that a try
Rekthar42 (8:11:30 PM): also might want to put an IK in the arm going from shoulder to wrist
Homyguy Ze (8:13:36 PM): don't IKs restrict the movement along a line of joints though?
Rekthar42 (8:14:32 PM): yes, also makes it bend correctly
Homyguy Ze (8:15:01 PM): I'll have to see when I'm done with the keying
Homyguy Ze (8:15:03 PM): thanks though
Rekthar42 (8:15:43 PM): did the parenting work?
Homyguy Ze (8:16:14 PM): haven't tried yet. one sec.
Rekthar42 (8:17:13 PM): oh i see, no problem, shit.. i need to write all this stuff down in wordpad or something for my own uses next time
Homyguy Ze (8:19:06 PM): didn't work
Rekthar42 (8:19:23 PM): hmm, the point constraint node is gone right?
Homyguy Ze (8:19:26 PM): yeah
Homyguy Ze (8:19:33 PM): but the parent constraint is still there
Homyguy Ze (8:19:36 PM): and I think it's holding it in place
Rekthar42 (8:20:27 PM): it shouldnt be.. wait, you parented it so moving the circle moves the arm right? not vice versa?
Homyguy Ze (8:20:42 PM): right
Rekthar42 (8:21:22 PM): so when you try dragging the wrist node around it doesnt move anything?
Homyguy Ze (8:21:41 PM): huh. no, I can
Homyguy Ze (8:21:53 PM): it has a parent constraint though
Rekthar42 (8:22:15 PM): ah, thats the point of the nodes, once its all hooked up, you only need to move that one circle to control the whole arm
Homyguy Ze (8:22:24 PM): I'm not sure why it isn't disabled though
Homyguy Ze (8:22:45 PM): the circle moves the wrist, but I can move the wrist if I want
Rekthar42 (8:23:22 PM): huh? i dont understand
Homyguy Ze (8:23:40 PM): there's apparently a constraint here
Rekthar42 (8:23:53 PM): yeh, the parent constraint, you want that
Homyguy Ze (8:23:53 PM): I can move the circle controller and the wrist moves accordingly
Homyguy Ze (8:24:01 PM): but I can also move juts the wrist joint
Homyguy Ze (8:24:12 PM): and that's the problem?
Rekthar42 (8:25:24 PM): hm, well you can put a new point constraint between the wrist joint and the node if you want to, goign the other way this time, but i ussually just leave the skeleton alone once the control rig is in place
Homyguy Ze (8:25:52 PM): that seems like asking for touble
Homyguy Ze (8:26:00 PM): I wish I could figure out why it isn't working like it supposed to
Rekthar42 (8:27:00 PM): what do you mean? sounds to me like it is, and the point constraint shouldnt cause a problem this time because its not counteracting itself, you can have multiple constraints between 2 objects
Homyguy Ze (8:28:02 PM): but it's supposed to lock the movement of the wrist joint as a result
Homyguy Ze (8:28:12 PM): or is that something I could just do myself
Homyguy Ze (8:28:37 PM): either way, the wrist joint is still anchored in place when I try to move the arm
Rekthar42 (8:29:29 PM): the point constraint will completely lock it down, but you should really have to, its not shifting wierdly when you move the wrist control right? it follows the motions correctly?
Homyguy Ze (8:30:11 PM): the wrist control and the wrist work perfectly together
Rekthar42 (8:30:32 PM): k
Rekthar42 (8:31:12 PM): hold that thought, got to restart my computer real quick
Homyguy Ze (8:31:32 PM): ok
Rekthar42 signed off at 8:31:53 PM.
Rekthar42 signed on at 8:33:17 PM.
Rekthar42 (8:34:14 PM): allright, what else?

Homyguy Ze (8:34:35 PM): I still can't get the wrist to respond to arm joint movements
Homyguy Ze (8:34:38 PM): it's stuck in place
Rekthar42 (8:35:14 PM): you need an Ik
Homyguy Ze (8:35:36 PM): and it's the parent constraint holding it there, cause when I lower the LHand Control W0 node to 0, the controller stops working, but the wrist responds to other joints just fine
Rekthar42 (8:37:22 PM): you dont want to be controlling any part of the skeleton directly from the joint interface, its messy, hard to control and impossible to reset, i guess i should have had you name the wrist control rig armControl, because you will be using that along with a pole vector to control every motion from the elbow down
Rekthar42 (8:37:27 PM): er, shoulder down
Rekthar42 (8:38:47 PM): when you set up an IK and get it all skinned properly all you will have to do is move the arm rig where you want it to, and the rest of the arm will flex naturally
Homyguy Ze (8:39:22 PM): I'll have to see how it works
Homyguy Ze (8:39:27 PM): I'm a huge animation control freak
Homyguy Ze (8:40:16 PM): doesn't help. the IK goes apeshit
Rekthar42 (8:41:25 PM): trust me, the easiest way to get wierd juttery motion, unnatural positions and errant key frames it to be doing it joint by joint, thats the point of rigging. anybody can draw a skeleton and smooth bind it, the point is to make it as easy to control as possible while staying within natural constraints
Homyguy Ze (8:42:11 PM): I get errors when I try to IK the shoulder to the wrist
Homyguy Ze (8:42:23 PM): it immediately starts fucking up and going nuts when I try to do anything with it
Rekthar42 (8:43:37 PM): hmmm, theres something wierd goign on with your rig, i almost never see errors till i get to skinning. wierdy hierachies that cause things to move oddly, or not at all, yes, but not actual MEL errors
Homyguy Ze (8:43:57 PM): I really think it's that parent constraint
Homyguy Ze (8:44:09 PM): all the errors have been since or regarding it
Homyguy Ze (8:45:56 PM): I tried a normal parent and it seems to work perfectly
Homyguy Ze (8:46:02 PM): even the IK is behaving
Homyguy Ze (8:46:21 PM): what it is it about normal parenting fucks up later?
Rekthar42 (8:47:57 PM): hmm, trying to remember, pretty sure it was in one of my original tutorials, just cant think why
Homyguy Ze (8:51:29 PM): I'm gonna stick with it, but if anything horrible happens later, you can say "I told you so"
Rekthar42 (8:51:51 PM): i reserve that right
Homyguy Ze (8:52:09 PM): in the meantime, I may at some point badmouth the parent constraint
Homyguy Ze (8:52:16 PM): just as long as we understand the rules
Rekthar42 (8:56:04 PM): dont know what the problem was, but its not an inherent flaw with the parent constraint, never had a problem with it, just conflicting with something else in your rig
Homyguy Ze (8:56:54 PM): hmm
Homyguy Ze (9:10:54 PM): is there any way to unhide attributes?
Rekthar42 (9:12:22 PM): i think so, from the ouliner
Homyguy Ze (9:12:31 PM): found it in channel control
Homyguy Ze (9:12:32 PM): thanks though
Homyguy Ze (9:26:55 PM): this is basically like blendshapes, right? can I key translate values and they'll stay local?
Homyguy Ze (9:27:10 PM): like, they won't jump back to a specific position on the grid if I move the monster elsewhere?
Rekthar42 (9:27:38 PM): yep
Homyguy Ze (9:27:52 PM): awesome. I'm gonna key the shit out of these fingers
Homyguy Ze (9:44:55 PM): dammit
Homyguy Ze (9:45:13 PM): when I mirrored the skeleton, the joints oriented themselves inversely
Homyguy Ze (9:45:22 PM): so I can adjust both hands at the same time
Homyguy Ze (9:45:29 PM): because rotating them makes them go in opposite directions
Rekthar42 (9:51:12 PM): hm?
Homyguy Ze (9:51:25 PM): think I fixed it
Homyguy Ze (9:51:44 PM): but I would select the joints I wanted to curl on both hands simultaneously
Homyguy Ze (9:51:47 PM): to keep things even
Homyguy Ze (9:51:57 PM): and when I rotated
Homyguy Ze (9:51:59 PM): one would go one way
Homyguy Ze (9:52:03 PM): the other would go the opposite way
Rekthar42 (9:52:39 PM): yeah, thats standard, why i have to do them manually and remember the % that i rotate too, alot of time is just write it down
Homyguy Ze (9:52:53 PM): Orient Joint fixes it
Homyguy Ze (9:53:16 PM): just select the duplicate side's joints that are causing trouble (or the root of the area that's causing trouble, actually)
Homyguy Ze (9:53:18 PM): and orient joint
Homyguy Ze (9:53:22 PM): and both do the same thing
Rekthar42 (9:53:48 PM): ah, cool
Homyguy Ze (9:54:15 PM): btw, I think I'm gonna save every AIM conversation I have with you
Homyguy Ze (9:54:34 PM): it would suck to have to learn all this again